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Nate
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... I actually wrote something similar to this on FanHuddle yesterday, but I focused more on infield defense. I guess I never thought of how different the outfield actually was. |
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Nate
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... And I totally didn't even link to my own post. :-p If anyone's interested, you can find mine here: http://bit.ly/2vfsvG |
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s-dan
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Re: azibuck how is a .300 avg with a .370 BABIP unlucky? the only real difference between avg and BABIP is outs that aren't in play (mainly, strikeouts) and home runs are factored in. so that pitcher just got more strikeouts and less home runs than the .357 avg guy. Sure, that makes him better, but how does it make him 'unlucky'? Also, avg is still highly defense dependent. I just don't see the value in looking at the two together when there's already pretty simple stats that separate out the various parts, like K/9 and HR/9. maybe i'm just missing your point? |
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MarkInDallas
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... My understanding is that BABIP is tied to line drive percentage, with the quick and dirty formula as .120 + LD% = xBABIP. This would mean with a normal LD% of 18%, xBABIP = .300 which is normal. Duke always has had a higher than usual LD%. In 2008, it was 20.8% which translates to .328 xBABIP. This year it was 19.5%, which translates to .315 xBABIP. So, last year at .327, it was very close to the expected .328. This year, it was .296, which was definitely better and can probably be attributed to better defense overall. Interestingly, in Duke's 2005 breakout year, he had a huge LD% of 26.4% meaning an xBABIP of .384. However, his BABIP that year was .294 because he countered it with a Popup% of 12.1% - which is double the normal rate. I doubt if that will ever be repeatable for him, but in essence that was the secret to his 2005 success. He also had half the HR/FB rate of a normal year. Using tRA, which calculates all those line drives and fly balls into the average BABIP for each type, Duke's ERA last year was expected to be 4.85 (very close at 4.82) and this year 4.62 (much worse than his 4.06). So it sure would seem that Duke is generally a pretty average pitcher that is very dependent on the fielders behind him to make him look good. |
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azibuck
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... The point, is that I don't agree with what is inferred here: Prior to 2009, the Pirates' defense was generally bad and Zach Duke's BABIPs from 2006 through 2008 were .327, .360, and .327. Duke's BABIPs were bad because he was a bad pitcher. The defense wasn't bad as much as it was helpless. All I need to look at to validate that BABIP number is the BA, which was .359 (I'm using bbref numbers). His ratios also validated it, but why parse those out? K/9 and HR/9 are simple to understand, without more context, it's hard to understand if a difference of .5 or .2 is a little or a lot. The point is I think defense is overrated as a factor in pitcher's numbers. And Edwin Jackson agrees. |
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matt w
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re: s-dan/azibuck I think the guy with the .300 batting average against (BAA) and the .370 BABIP is unlucky because his defense converts so few of his balls into outs. Or perhaps he's not so much unlucky as his defense is bad and his pitching style doesn't mask its weaknesses, like a ground ball pitcher with an infield of Adam Dunns. Which is what it would take to get a BABIP of .370, by the way; the highest BABIP for qualified pitchers this year was .339, and the highest BAA was .299. Anyway, I think you can argue that a guy with high BABIP and middling BAA is probably unlucky, in that his awful defense made him look like a middling pitcher instead of a good one; but a guy with high BABIP and high BAA is probably also unlucky, in that his awful defense made him look like a craptacular pitcher instead of a bad one. Going back to the stats, let's take the difference between ERA and FIP as a measure of luck. (Which might beg the question, since FIP is suppose to be fielding-independent pitching as measured solely by assuming a normal BABIP. But I think this is how the argument goes.) The median FIP seems to be 3.97, the median ERA 3.92 (one R. Ohlendorf), the median BAA .257, and the median BABIP .296 (Mr. Zach Duke, so it's not exactly like his defense bailed him out). Now, the actual BABIP leader, Aaron Harang, turns out not to be particularly unlucky; ERA of 4.21, FIP of 4.14, both pretty poor for qualified pitchers. That's because he gave up a ton of home runs, meaning that he didn't put so many balls in play. But #2 Jason Hammel, who's high-BAA and high-BABIP (.290/.337) looks even worse by ERA but well above average by FIP (4.33/3.71). Same with #4 BABIP, Carl Pavano (BAA .297, BABIP .335), who looks awful by ERA (5.10) but only mediocre by FIP (4.00). #3 Ricky Nolasco by this measure is a good pitcher whose defense makes him look bad; BAA at .265 (just over average), .336 BABIP, quite good FIP at 3.35, putrid ERA at 5.06. And Justin Verlander (BABIP .330/BAA .244) looks like a fantastic pitcher whose defense makes him only look good: ERA 3.45, FIP 2.80. So the point is, a bad BABIP can make a pitcher look worse than FIP thinks he is, no matter where he is on the good-to-bad spectrum, unless he's Aaron Harang. If BABIP reflects bad luck, it does so for every pitcher. (And it might be that BABIP isn't just luck and defense; for instance, knuckleballers usually have a below-average BABIP, so it might make sense that other pitchers can prevent good contact. But I'd still think that'd apply across the spectrum.) BTW Maholm is top 10 in both BABIP and difference between FIP and ERA. Somewhere (Nate's blog?) I saw an analysis that basically said this because of replacing Jack and Freddy with Cedeno and Delwyn. We'll see. |
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matt w
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just to be clear all that was based on the idea of straight-up BABIP as the measure of defensive luck -- if you look at LD%, tRA, etc. it might be that Duke gets a lot of line drives and his defense keeps his BABIP down to normal. Didn't mean to dismiss MarkInDallas's analysis (hey, that rhymes!) |
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whygavs
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Maholm and Duke I don't think it was Nate's review that said that about Maholm. He was actually pretty unlucky all year, so I'm not sure that's a valid point about Young and Cedeno, anyways. I remember writing about his FIP and xFIP at the All-Star break and saying he was unlucky and getting into a similar discussion with Azibuck about this. Anyways, re: the Duke discussion, I guess I could've gone more into his older numbers (it's a constant struggle to not ramble, but to include all of the relevant points). I'm not arguing that Duke wasn't a better pitcher in 2009 or that he wasn't a bad pitcher in the past, but his ERA was much higher than his FIP in 2008 (it did hit his xFIP almost on the nose, though) and it was much, much higher than both his FIP and xFIP in 2007. The Pirates' UZR, meanwhile, ranged between below average and very bad in 2006, 2007, and 2008 and was above average in 2009. Using BABIP probably wasn't the best way to make my point, but I still think that Duke is tied more to team defense because of his low strikeout rate (duh), and that as a lefty, he was a huge beneficiary of the improved left field and center field defense in 2009. |
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MarkInDallas
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Another thing to consider FIP and ERA are actually not on a 1 to 1 relationship if you plot them on a graph. FIP has a more narrow band between low and high than ERA. So if you have a median FIP and a median LD% you should have a median BABIP and therefore a median ERA. But if you have a higher than average FIP and a median LD% and BABIP, then you expect your ERA to get progressively higher than your FIP depending on how far away from the median you are. The same thing happens on the low end as well. In 2005, Duke had a FIP of 3.00, which was considerably lower than the median FIP of 4.29. View a 3.00 FIP on the chart below and you'll see it correlates pretty closely to his actual 1.80 ERA. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/why-you-cant-subtract-fip-from-era/ Anyway, the point is that Zach Duke's LD% is consistently higher than than the average pitcher. This makes it tough for him to have a BABIP that is not going to be higher than normal. |
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Mr. Ando
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... Interesting that this post comes the day after a fangraphs article noting that Bay has the 5th worst UZR from 2007-2009 |
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whygavs
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Mr. Ando -- I think that FanGraphs post went up around midnight, which was actually after I started working on this post. For most long posts that I write during the offseason, I start them at night, get them mostly done, sleep on them, then polish them up in morning and post them. |
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Nate
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... It was definitely not my review that said that Maholm's troubles were due to Young and Cedeno. In the case of Duke, though, I did make the point that he got appreciably worse despite having a better FIP after the Wilson and Sanchez trades. |
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Nate
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... Further, a question to azibuck: You're saying that Edwin Jackson, John Maine, or any other ground ball pitcher would have equal success with an infield of Adam Everetts as with an infield of Adam Dunns? is your argument that defense does not matter AT ALL as it relates to a pitcher's success, or am I just misunderstanding you? |
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azibuck
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... I must not be no good with the words and the putting them together, because I don't see how my word about defense, "overrated", could be taken to mean "doesn't matter at all." Of course it matters. I like to use Edwin Jackson because the Rays defense got a lot of credit (esp. at Bucs Dugout) for the 30 win turnaround for them from 07 to 08. I'm sure their D was improved, but it's like the 35 less homers and 60 less walks the pitching staff gave up was ancillary to the REAL issue of better defense. I CANNOT PROVE THIS IN A MEANINGFUL WAY, but.... It's my opinion that Jackson was young and improving and learning how to keep hitters off balance, thus, while he struck out less batters, he was also giving up less baserunners because HE was better. The improved D helped, but not as much as some were crediting it for. I'm not declaring victory, but he took another step with the Tigers in 09. He's 25. It was just that at the time, maybe because he'd been a prospect for so long, that his improvement was dismissed as solely defense driven. |
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matt w
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Maholm Nate, that was probably what I was thinking of. I guess I transferred the thought to Maholm because he's the groundballer whose ERA was much worse than his FIP. (Keeping in mind what Mark said about straight-up comparisons, Maholm had the 12th worst ERA among qualifiers but was in the top half for FIP, so that's a pretty big change.) |
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Mr. Ando
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@Pat I was just noting the coincidentality of it all. Wasn't accusing you of any funny business. |
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Alana
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Good article but... BUT Duke also puts tons of balls into play in the infield. Which is why his stats got worse after they traded away their infield!!! So, Duke's numbers for the first half of next year will be similar to the last half of this year. I hope they trade Duke or trade for some stellar infield. I think we know which is more likely to happen! |
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Bob Mooseknuckle
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... The percentage of balls put in play (regardless of whether they are home runs) which are hit HARD is the determining factor when deciding the effectiveness of a pitcher. Any pitcher who can strike out batters or induce them into making easy outs is the mark of excellence. Saying any pitcher is unlucky when he has a high BABIP and a high percentage of hard hit balls is like saying my mother had bad luck driving her 1978 Mercury Marquis through parking garages....you don't get dinged that much unless you are doing something to encourage it. |
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