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SteelCity G
said:
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... Well said Pat, I couldn't agree more. I'm in the trade everybody camp and start over Marlin style with a 20 mill payroll so these types of trades are what I feel is the best way to get to where we want to go. Your final paragraph nails my thoughts perfectly, those are the questions I have, I feel these moves are the right way to go and my questions are about the players we are seeking as returns in these types of trades and if we can get them to the majors quickly and as the best players they can be. Nate was not the Great and getting what we got will benefit us in the future, could we have got a better deal elsewhere? We will never know but this was the deal and I'm on board and hope to see more just like it. |
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Ryan
said:
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... Amen Pat. But wait, didn't you hear...Nate McLouth is REALLY Albert Pujols!!! These fans complaining about the deal have built McLouth's value up into something of a Babe Ruth status and it's ridiculous. NH had nothing at all to work with and needs to acquire as much young talent as possible. They were not shopping McLouth at all, the Braves came to them, the Pirates liked the returns they were getting and made the move. |
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Ryan
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... Speaking of which, does anyone hear comment on the PBC blog by any chance? And I'm talking about the same like 8-10 people everyday...those people are strange. |
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Nathan
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... I disagree, but I have different reasons than the PG editorial. As for the McLouth trade, I think we won't really be able to tell if it was a good one until we see how the careers of the players involved pan out over time. What really bothers me about this is that there seem two be two main camps among Pirates fans about the trade and the general direction of the franchise, and I don't agree with either of them. Pat does a nice job of writing why PG editorial side is wrong, but I also think there are significant problems with the DJ Gallo side as well. Let's say the Pirates are successful in trading away players now for prospects to build up a "championship caliber" team like management says is its goal. You'll get the prospect haul from Bay, Nady, Marte, McLouth, maybe Ad. Laroche, Grabow, J. Wilson, too, plus you could get some Dominican signings and 2 or 3 good drafts of players. Theoretically, that would give the Bucs plenty of players to field a great team with... but this is where I fundamentally disagree. If we are going to be completely honest, you can look at the track records of even the best farm systems in baseball and even there, you have many more failed prospects than successes. Many of the "high upside" guys the Bucs are pulling in will flame out and turn into average players at best. What's even more important is that even if they turn into great major leaguers, it's exceedingly rare that they will play that way from day one of their major league careers. They will need time to develop and grow and get better. And with time comes steep contracts, and eventually free agency. Let's face it, the Bucs aren't mortgaging this year for 2010 or 2011, they are aiming at 2012 or 2013. Personally, I just don't think we're ever going to get there. Look at the stands, no one in Pittsburgh goes to the games anymore. Do you really think they're going to hang on that long for... for what? So we can be the Oakland As? 3-4 years of good baseball with an outside shot at a championship before we need to let the next Bonds go and start this cycle again? Let's be honest, while trading guys like McLouth for prospects might be the right move now, it is NOT going to lead to a championship... to win world series you eventually need money, and as long as the Pirates don't have it we're going nowhere. Look at the Rays, they did everything right for years. A small market team defying the odds right? Wrong. One offseason can land two big FAs in the laps of their competitors and they are facing a serious possibility of being shut out of the post-season. As a Pirates fan, I'd rather be in that position than the one we're in, but it isn't going to get much better this way, and it's time for someone to talk about it. |
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Nathan
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... Sorry... Theoretically, that would give the Bucs plenty of players to field a great team with... but this is where I fundamentally disagree. If we are going to be completely honest, you can look at the track records of even the best farm systems in baseball and even there, you have many more failed prospects than successes. Many of the "high upside" guys the Bucs are pulling in will flame out and turn into average players at best. What's even more important is that even if they turn into great major leaguers, it's exceedingly rare that they will play that way from day one of their major league careers. They will need time to develop and grow and get better. And with time comes steep contracts, and eventually free agency. Let's face it, the Bucs aren't mortgaging this year for 2010 or 2011, they are aiming at 2012 or 2013. Personally, I just don't think we're ever going to get there. Look at the stands, no one in Pittsburgh goes to the games anymore. Do you really think they're going to hang on that long for... for what? So we can be the Oakland As? 3-4 years of good baseball with an outside shot at a championship before we need to let the next Bonds go and start this cycle again? Let's be honest, while trading guys like McLouth for prospects might be the right move now, it is NOT going to lead to a championship... to win world series you eventually need money, and as long as the Pirates don't have it we're going nowhere. Look at the Rays, they did everything right for years. A small market team defying the odds right? Wrong. One offseason can land two big FAs in the laps of their competitors and they are facing a serious possibility of being shut out of the post-season. As a Pirates fan, I'd rather be in that position than the one we're in, but it isn't going to get much better this way, and it's time for someone to talk about it. |
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Nathan
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... ... no one in Pittsburgh goes to the games anymore. Do you really think they're going to hang on that long for... for what? So we can be the Oakland As? 3-4 years of good baseball with an outside shot at a championship before we need to let the next Bonds go and start this cycle again? Let's be honest, while trading guys like McLouth for prospects might be the right move now, it is NOT going to lead to a championship... to win world series you eventually need money, and as long as the Pirates don't have it we're going nowhere. Look at the Rays, they did everything right for years. A small market team defying the odds right? Wrong. One offseason can land two big FAs in the laps of their competitors and they are facing a serious possibility of being shut out of the post-season. As a Pirates fan, I'd rather be in that position than the one we're in, but it isn't going to get much better this way, and it's time for someone to talk about it. |
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Nathan
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... ... and it's time for someone to say something about it (Sorry for the long multi-comment, I really just had to get that frustration out of my system... what does everyone else think? Do you have more hope than I do?) |
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James
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... Nathan, your argument is sound, and it seems to be a more thought-out version "McCutchen will just be in pinstripes in three years." However, I think that Pirates management will have more money to work with once the team begins to show competitiveness circa 2011. This is a market that, despite having the lowest attendance in MLB, shows up when there are flashes of quality baseball. Thursday's afternoon game saw 3,300 walkup tickets (myself among them) for Cutch's debut. The largest walkup crowd ever was Karstens home debut after his near-perfect game. Attendance will improve greatly once the McCutchen/Alvarez core begins to compete. That means more revenue and a higher payroll, something that didn't come to pass in the terrible baseball markets of Miami and Tampa. Florida averaged 16,000 fans during their World Series season of 2003, and Tampa averaged only 22,000 last year. |
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SteelCity G
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... So your upset we aren't the Yankees, you want us to sign free agents like the Yankees, and say we will never win because we can't do that like the Yankees then? That will never happen here and you should know that, this is the best way for us to win, make good trades,draft well and sign good latin players. The only alternative you give to the way they are doing things is one that is impossible and will never happen and if you are hanging your head that one day we will have a $250 million payroll you picked the wrong franchise to be a fan of. Unless I missed something, thats what I got from your comments. |
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appealtosmail
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... Thanks Pat, Nathan and all. Here's a point and it's a debatable one: Pittsburgh is not much of a baseball town. I remember crowds of 8-10,000 when the line up included hall of famers, league leaders, etc. "The parking sucks, too long to get home after, too many coloreds on the team (I'm not kidding) etc." It seems that this is the majority that the PG editorial panders to. My observation is that contact sports are king in the burgh. That's fine, but I can't relate. I'm not even a sports fan but I'm a baseball fan and a true Pirates fan. Unfortunately, it's a minority. |
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whygavs
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... I won't argue that point, but the other 10,000 people that used to hang out with me in the Mellon Arena in the winter of 2003-2004 would surely point out that Pittsburgh wasn't much of a hockey town just a few years ago. If you build it, they will come, as they say. |
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Ryan
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... Exactly. Ask Jim Leyland what kind of baseball town Pittsburgh is, he'll tell you what's up. People will come if you win. I can't make that point enough. And btw, they had 20k during Thursday for the afternoon weekday game. |
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JerryG
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... Back in 2002-05, you could say that Milwaukee wasn't much of a baseball town. I remember being able to drive up to games and buy tickets at the window and have no problem at all. I could drive out of there right after the game with the other 14,000 who showed up. Last summer, I had to buy tickets online a few days before or else get stuck with no tickets at all and the only tickets I could get were $45 each. I got there and the parking lot was full. Most every Brewers fan I talked to was buzzing about getting CC Sabathia (I think he was traded there the next day). The crowd of nearly 50,000 rocked the place for every home run Duke and Bautista gave up. Not bad for a Sunday afternoon game in a town that just a few years earlier wasn't a baseball town. |
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JerryG
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... I think that any fan that states that the McLouth trade was a salary dump should be asked why management even bother bringing LaRoche back? He's making $7 million, why not just non-tender him? Also couldn't they have traded Jack Wilson for nothing and dump his $7 million salary as well? That'd almost make up for the $15 million McLouth's guaranteed. Add in the fact that they could have gone to arbitration with him and then traded him after that as well. The Braves would have had him for the next two seasons as well since those will be arbitration years for him. The salary dump argument falls apart the more you think about it. There are certainly easier, less messy ways to dump salary than pissing off the fanbase and the press by trading a popular player. |
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safetydave
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... Despite your futility fanhouse mlb posts being directed to a different audience, it panders to the lazy and thoughtless you mention in this well written piece. Dig into the record if/when it happens not all season. |
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ben klingston
said:
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... i dont agree with that really. i think pittsburgh is very much a baseball town, it has just lacked a semi-consistent team for the last 1.5 decades. i am 26 yrs old, and can remember the excitement levels surrounding the NLCS in 1990-1992. if the prospects/alvarez/cutch/tabata/lincoln/morris/etc project somehow works out well (not an unrealistic assumption), and we start winning more than we lose, i dont think it would be a stretch to see our average attendance figure rise to 30-35K per game. Pittsburgh is a sports town. our stadium is badass. all thats missing is competitive baseball on a regular basis. lets go bucs. |
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mocasdad
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Pat\'s last graf is crucial I have many concerns about the new pirate management team. I'm not in the basher camp, but neither am I in the "they can do no wrong" camp either, as many seem to be. I'm not in the least convinced they are solid talent evaluators. We'll have to see on that one, but someone point to a draft pick showing any signs of "dominating his level." That could be just a too early to tell situation, or it could be a) bad talent evaluation, b) poor instruction, c) trying to change players to something they're not, or d) some combination of a, b, and c. Please don't misconstrue this as a PBC commenter mindset. I am just trying to keep an open mind about the FO, and I'm not yet convinced of its brilliance. |
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Tim Williams
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No salary dump Pat, Well said. In the opening you pretty much summed up my exact same reaction to the trade. I'm starting to like it more as rumors come out that the Pirates were worried about McLouth's defense (we've started to see players running on him more, even tagging from first). Also, I think his value takes a hit if you move him to a corner spot to make room for Cutch in center. As for the salary dump issue, it has no logic behind it. If the main concern by the Pirates was cutting salary, then why would they have given McLouth the extension in the first place, which included $1.5 M up front? I hate that every move the Pirates make is always met with the same cookie cutter "salary dump" argument. I was disappointed to see it from the PPG. |
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Michael
said:
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... Nathan, Even if what you say is true, I'd rather have a shot at the playoffs for a two or three year window every six years than what we have had. If that happened, it would be a success. If what James says comes to pass, even better. True, a lot of the prospects won't pan out, but neither have our free agents. Investing in young potential is better than investingg on the risk of one or two more good seasons out of a veteran. Then the options are: (1) Flame out - we get rid of them. (2) Productive players who will never be stars. Then we play them while we search for the next players. We still have to field a team, and I'd rather do it this way then with Joe Randa et al - much cheaper. Players like Jack Wilson seem to fit this mold, probably Freddy Sanchez too. McCluth would have filed this role, but we managed to trade high, see number 3. (3) Get a good player. Then we can either keep the player (and risk free agency), or if the opportunity comes we can trade for high value and restart the process. I'd take spending our money on this rather than hoping that veteran has one more decent year. The exception will come if it looks like we are a player or two away - then go after free agency. Finally, this compares well to the Steelers. Who is the last superstar the Steelers got in free agency? Instead, they spend their money on building good players. This has already worked well in Pittsburgh for one sport. |
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Michael
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... Sorry, didn't realize I'd have to break this into two posts: (3) Get a good player. Then we can either keep the player (and risk losing them in free agency), or trade them when their value is best and restart. McClouth fits this mold. If we were a good outfielder away from the playoffs, we made a bad move in the trade, but we weren't. I'd rather live life this way than risking the free agent marekt. Finally, the Steelers have played this game pretty well. Aside from James Farrior, they focused on drafted and homegrown talent rather than risking free agency. It has kept us competitive year in and year out, even if we rarely become the powerhouse team nobody thinks will ever lose. (Even in the Super Bowl wins we never opened the season as "the team to beat.") |
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Shawn
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Next player to trade because he is at his highest value has to be Nyjer Morgan. I mean, he may end up being a great major leaguer, but I have my doubts. I think he is at the apex of his ML career. He's good, but he is at his highest value now. I wonder what we can get for him? One high ceilinged young minor leaguer would work for me. |
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Shawn
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I think you are saying something similar that a lot of other people are saying. Essentially, they agree with the process the current FO is going about, however it is yet to be seen what kind of talent evaluators they are. In other words, the plan is right, we'll have to wait and see on the execution of it. |
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pEktaS
said:
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... Its nice to go somewhere where people are atleast semi informed into how baseball works i was surrounded by 4 guys here at work trying to explain why this works and all anyone can say is ive heard that for 16 years now and why didnt they trade moss, apparently people also think you can just trade anyone for anyone so in that case ima be trading ian snell for roy halladay and you know what throw in one or two of their young guys while your at it noone has any clue how baseball works they all think the pirates are the yankees which btw when was the last time the yankees have won anything? sorry just needed to vent that a lil |
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Greg
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... I STILL think salary caps would help the Pirates. I said that the Steelers used to bleed players like the Pirates do now. Someone somewhere else on this blog tried to tell me the Steelers still do and Kendrell Bell was a name that came up. Bell was slowing down, so the Steelers cut him, as was the same with Levon Kirkland, Jason Gildon, and so on. The Steelers just know who to let go to make room under the cap. Look at the Pens-totally crappy in recent years until the NHL said it was time for salary caps and now look, they'll be NHL world champs after they win games 6 and 7. I'm not saying the Pirates will be instant winners if MLB went to salary caps, but it would help tremendously. Dammit, salary caps for MLB!!...Please? |
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Greg
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... I equate the Pirates trading players like McLouth for minor leaguers to me trading my car for a tricycle. Really, that'd be logical thinking-I could go on a tricycle, but get there slower than if I were in a car, like the Pirates having a winning season some century, instead of in a few years... |
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Edward H.
said:
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McLouth Deal I disagree with the overall sense in here that this deal was a good deal for the Bucs. How does acquiring a player (Hernandez) who essentially the same player as the one you just recalled (McCutchen) qualify as an upgrade? How is acquiring Morton, the most "major league ready" guy, an upgrade over the guys (Snell, Ohlendorf and Karstens) who are already there? Well, who knows, maybe Locke's the guy who's the REAL key. I wasn't expecting the farm for Nate, but I don't think this deal brings back much more than bodies in return. And BTW, why are folks so excited about Andrew McCutchen? He will never be a Sizemore, Upton or Ellsbury. Heck, I don't even see him as a Granderson-type. Andrew's going to get on base, steal some bases, score some runs and play good D. But as a run producer? As a difference maker? Hardly anyone to get excited about. With him and Morgan in the OF, the Bucs better hope either Moss starts hitting the stuffing out of the ball, or Tabata (when he arrives in a couple of years) does instead. Otherwise, you have an unproductive OF that other teams will smile when they play, knowing they won't have to worry about keeping the ball in the park. |
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Edward H.
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... ...stuffing out of the ball, or Tabata does whenever he's recalled. Otherwise, you have no production from the OF, and teams rubbing their hands in glee knowing that playing the Pirates means the ball is staying in the yard. |
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